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universe is expanding…. but where???

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  • Ashish Jain says:

    hey this question puzzles me a lot…. they say universe is expanding…. but expanding into what??? i mean there must be some space outside universe for universe to expand into it….so whats this space????

  • Ashish Jain says:

    hmmm… well i guess its need more simplification.. i didnt get it….
    btw a related q….
    consider space to have some gravity…
    so if an astronaut or any1 some how falls in the space from his space craft or from any damn place… where would he fall

  • Praveen Nooli says:

    Hi frnz..

    when you are bringing black holes into picture….you are speaking about how universe may end..but as far as ashish is concerned

    Universe is expanding…but your question was where it is expanding…you need to first understand what is SPACE…space is defined by the existence of matter…and Universe has got no boundaries to expand….

    for more information about the expansion of universe…refer
    No Boundary Hypothesis by Stephen Hawking

  • Praveen Nooli says:

    well regarding the rolling ball
    well shruti….nice to c u being curious…

    Lets consider the situation of bowling ball…It does not know the length of the aisle to keep on rolling but then…the end of the aisle is defined by some obstruction…and that obstruction creates a reaction force when the ball hits it and hence the balls stops rolling…
    2 say in simple terms the universe is defined by abstract issues like …force…and energy…
    Infact matter can be regarded as trapped energy….

    how abt your view on this..

  • Vikas Patel says:

    Talking of imagination…
    What if the whole theory about expansion and The big bang is incorrect???

    Scientists monitor the frequency of the light from galaxies…. and based on the observation that the frequency of light from these galaxies is being shifted to the red end of the spectrum… conclude that the galaxies are moving away from each other.

    Isn’t there a possibility that some kind of unknown phenomenon or effects from some other entity in space causes the shift in frequency to the red end of the spectrum??? So chances are that the whole theory about expansion or big bang is a ERRONEOUS !!!!!

  • Praveen Nooli says:

    well 2 shruti

    Matter is trapped energy means both are manifestations of each other..but both are of different form
    Your imagination that…in an electric field..when both points are separated by some distance in electric field….there need not be physical contact…..

    For a particle moving in a definite direction…as the ball in previous discussion or electric charge in the latest scrap…to halt the motion…what is needed ultimately is its force to be neutralised.

    In case of the ball….when the ball touches the obstruction…it exerts a force on the obstruction and the obstruction generates a force opposing it and thus the inertial force of the ball is neutralised..

    In case of charged particle…the second particle which is moving towards the particle can be accelerated or retarded depending upon the charge as you might be aware….What we need to observe is…its acceleration or retardation..is also caused by the force generated by the other particle….the force here is electrostatic force..

    So ultimately what I wanna say is energy need not be thin matter to stop the charged particle…..it is the force that dictates motion and energy or mass help in manipulating the force…energy and matter only give genesis to force….

    Well this is what I feel….clarify whether my reasoning appears fallacious or whether it is convincing…

  • Praveen Nooli says:

    2 vikas
    well vikas….

    You have got proper information about the red-shifts and their observations…and your thought for probing that there must be some other theory..is applaudable….but what matters is convincing deductions and experimental proofs…and if you can produce them…you can suggest a new theory..

    regarding unknown phenomenon
    what unknown phenomenon you are speaking about…that creates red-shift….doppler effect is not a real change in frequency…its about apparent frequency…because of motion…..

    Can you please elucidate further your ideas of unknown phenomenon that is creating change in frequency//

  • Vikas Patel says:

    @Praveen

    I must say …. I’ve no intentions nor am i qualified to condemn any theory proposed by some of the greatest minds of this planet. Nor do I wish to propose any theory…I’m just not eligible to do that…

    But just for the sake of argument….
    Of course, Doppler effect is apparent change in frequency due to motion… Scientist’s attribute the red shifts to Doppler effect (not exactly but similar) and assume that the galaxies are moving away from each other….

    Like i said before there is a possibility that the red shifts are not due to galaxies moving away from each other, the change could be due to some other phenomenon….Let me try to prove this..

    According to one of the Einstein’s theory, gravity can change the frequency of light……i.e. gravity can drain the energy from light and cause it to reduce to a lower frequency….

    Now assume all galaxies are still (i.e. not moving away from each other) and light from one of the stars (from the neighbouring galaxies) travels towards us. As the light travels…the strong gravitational forces from stars, planets & black holes (if they exist) on its way causes it to lower its frequency. Thus causing the red-shifts. So the red-shift would be merely because of gravitational forces and not necessarily from the universe expanding!!!!

  • Praveen Nooli says:

    @vikas

    Vikas my intent here is not to discourage you…rather have a healthy argument….and you need not think whether you are qualified or not, ….put your ideas into action…

    I mean search and work to deduce some proofs to find out whether your idea is right…..

    Ultimately it doesn’t matter who proposed the theory…what matters is find the laws of the Nature in the greater interest of Manking to understand our universe better

  • Praveen Nooli says:

    Hey vikas…..well I found that the idea of re-shift because of gravity is being researched…..you got good information…but then…investigate further

  • Vikas Patel says:

    @praveen

    Glad to know that … there is actually research going on the red shift due to gravity theory!! So that means in near future the big bang theory may be abandoned??
    Thanks for your concerns praveen but your questions definitely did not discourage me anyways….

  • Vikas Patel says:

    @shruti
    To understand how the universe is expanding and what shape it might be taking u can consider the classic balloon example….

    Assume that u r blowing a balloon which has spots on it…As u blow the balloon its surface area expands… and the spots on the balloon move away from each other… Now replace the spots with galaxies and ballon by the universe….So this much give u an idea about how the universe is expanding.
    Talking about the shape of the universe my wildest guess would be that universe is spherically expanding…. However as far as i know the galaxies are supposed to be flat…

  • Vasudevan N says:

    Universe
    I believe that universe is expanding to outer side until the gravitational force overcome the force from the bing bang explosion.
    I have a lots of believes that,some ideas are already proposed and some not. When gravitational force overcome the opposite force then universe started to contraction, and finally meets at the place of big bang and leads to big stop. this big stop again leads to the next big bang. At the time between big stop and big bang(negligible amount of time), the entire universe becomes homogenous(similar to primitive socialism and final communism, every system, always homogenous at starting and ending)
    At the expansion phase, light(quanta with high energy) distributed at surface and rigid bodies(like dead stars) at core. the high gravitational force from the massive bodies like black hole attracted the high energy contained particles from surface to back.
    when we go to a black hole then we will reaches to another world, how? somebody stated this with the help of Einsteins rubber sheet space time continuum. black hole make curvature to space time continuum(general theory of relativity) and make hole. i was tried to explained in some other way, at black hole the relative time becomes infinity and we are short cuted to big stop and after big stop all black holes are destructed and starts a new universe(world).

  • Vasudevan N says:

    soul
    Soul, i think it is a mechanism, not energy and matter. it is the rules that control a system.
    Human intellect have some basic knowledge and some logical connectivity and a goal (similar to an artificial agent).1+1=2 is a basic. from this we calculate all additions to find a goal or answer. if my basic is 1+1=3 then either my logical reasoning or my goal will deffer from the others, some times both. still there is a relationship between the basic, deduction and goal.
    you can measure infinite meter in between one meter of others by changing some of the above three.
    so you can believe universe is an expanding sphere or a block with holes. if my universe expand outwards, simultaneously your universe may expand to inward.

  • Vasudevan N says:

    Sure. every mechanism is univertible. because it flow in one direction from past to future through present. which have neither ‘particle property’ nor ‘wave property’.

  • Vasudevan N says:

    mechanism is some rules or protocols that guide the particles and waves. what is the third law of motion? it is a rule that applicable to newtonian mechanical bodies. can u connect one reaction to other action? that connection form a chain reaction from start to end. this connecting chain is define every property of that system. that property is called as soul. every substance have soul.in some concept, soul of entire universe is consider as god. interms of theoretical physics this is called as universal formula. this is the current goal of theoretical scientists. this is the base of hawking’s challenge(end of the research, within 20 years). failure of converging to this was the final irritation of Albert Einstein(because of the probabilistic behavior of quantum mechanics). certainty is the rigidity of this concept. Einstein believed in that(god will not play dice).

  • markos poulakis says:

    @all

    Hmm! None knows where the atoms and the universe come from; there is this Big Bang theory, according to which the MATTER was concentrated in an initial singularity in the smallest space (space 10-35 m, temperature 10-32K and density 1094 gr.cm.10-3) and after 10-36 sec, etc. I am not completely convinced of its practical reality and use.

    One is however sure that no divinity within the universe created us; otherwise someone had also to create this divinity! Therefore, in order to use further thinking, I adopted the skeptical attitude of the AUTOPOIESIS! This actually says that we are further developed during a self creation process. In this sense, I agree with you!

    Is the universe expanding into its own holes and is it just now filling out the emptiness?? Great Ideas?

  • markos poulakis says:

    @all
    If we must navigate a ship in a narrow channel without radar, sea charts, navigation lights, etc. we can either strand the ship or succeed to bring this in the safe open sea. If we fail it is proved that the choosed route was wrong. If we are successful it is only proved that the course was OK, but we cannot learn nothing about the real nature of the narrows, how safe we were or how near to the catastrophe; we were like blinds while we passed the narrows. We were lucky, but we could not learn anything about the reality.

    Like blinds we might only construct some reality with all others, who are in social coupling with us. And this is our (objective) reality of the universe, OK??

  • Ûžnce Upon a tyme ...... says:

    Markos
    .

    Whatever could be understood, could be conquered as well, and God cannot be conquered.
    Yesterday generations also, did not believe in, what we believe today.
    No worries, your grands or great grands will accept what you deny today.

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